Your salary: Don’t ask, don’t tell?
Did you all see “Not-So-Personal Finance” in the New York Times this weekend? It’s a story about young people sharing their salary figures with each other — which has long been considered bad professional behavior — and the generational politics of openly discussing money and other traditionally private matters. The Times writer paints the issue, er, vividly: “As Ilana Arazie, 32, an online video producer for a media company in Manhattan, said, ‘If we can talk about how many orgasms we have with our mate, why can’t we discuss how much we make?’”
Now, for the record, you’re not likely to find me talking about how many orgasms I have with my mate anywhere ever (and certainly not in the Times), but I’ve often been told I’m conservative in this respect. And maybe that’s why I might find it strategically suspect — never mind just plain icky — to do compensation roundtables with friends. Or worse yet, to post salaries on Facebook, as the title of Times article’s web page — “Sharing Salary Figures on Facebook” — seems to suggest is happening. (The story itself doesn’t include an instance of this.) It’s one thing to share that number with very close friends or mentors, but with your whole happy-hour crew or Facebook universe? Not so much.
For those of you who aren’t yet furiously writing a comment, here’s why: If you’re a recent grad or working in an industry where early-career salaries are more or less set and/or public, it makes sense to try to get as much information as you can about what you’re worth, which often means giving specifics — such as what you’re being offered for a particular job.
But once you’ve been in a gig or in an industry for a while, salaries become an increasingly sensitive topic. Why? Because the friends you’re showing your paycheck to are often your colleagues. And if you’ve all been at your careers long enough, significant differences — in how you’re compensated, your job responsibilities, and even the level of respect you get from your superiors — are bound to emerge. Mishandle these, whether by inadvertently flaunting your own success or becoming jealous of someone else’s, and you’re in for some serious professional tension.
For instance, I have a journalism friend who is constantly coming up with cute ways to ask what I make, and judging from his/her eager expression, these inquiries aren’t made in the spirit of sharing. It’s competition, pure and simple, and while I adore this person, I’m pretty sure that if I shared the information s/he wants, we’d be the Lauren and Heidi of the friend group faster than you can say “TMI.”
Of course, I also have a colleague here at Fortune whose encouragement has been invaluable when it comes to asking for raises and whatnot. But we only talk numbers on a relatively vague, need-to-know basis. Keeping these chats hypothetical keeps us close and — in a positive sort of way — competitive, since we never quite know exactly where the other stands. (Don’t believe that the taboo still exists? Check out Fortune senior writer Annie Fisher’s latest column, “Tax rebates: A clue to co-workers’ salaries,” which is all about how to use rebate time to surreptitiously figure out what your coworkers make.)
But whatever my squeamishness, I did find the Times story’s generational explanations of this behavior amusing. As with so many things, it’s all about our childhoods. Salary.com chief compensation officer Bill Coleman cited Gen Yers’ affinity for teamwork as one reason why we might seek friends’ help to decipher salaries. And Barbara W. Keats, an associate professor of management at Arizona State University, says that our “relative lack of manners regarding salary can be traced to the self-esteem movement embraced by baby boomer parents.” As she puts it, “They’re special, and however they say things is very cute.”
It’s reductive, yes, but I don’t necessarily disagree. Many of us are still young enough that we haven’t yet had the chance to feel the backlash of revealing too much detail about our personal and professional lives. And it remains to be seen if there really will be one, or if corporate etiquette will adjust to us, the way that other corporate structures have. But regardless, it just seems to me that, in the average office, showing your economic hand can go either way — and the benefits don’t outweigh the consequences of oversharing, no matter how old you are.
But maybe I’m already too old to understand the rationale of these young movers and shakers. What about you?
Very interesting article. Western societies have guarded salraies better than their governments guarded the UFO secrets for centuries. When you keep it a secret, it only helps the corporate world to try to give the lowest salary possible to the employees and keep the raises to the minimum. They try to encourage you to keep it a secret by telling you that sharing that information will lead to increased competition & professional tension etc. Well, not so much. Can’t I guess how much you probably are making by looking at the cars you drive and the homes you live and how many days a week you eat out and the vacations you take? Its a fools paradise to think keeping your salary a secret is going to help you. On the flip side, if you don’t know what your colleagues are making, how sure are you that your manager is not paying you the least salary possible and still getting the best work out of you (yeah, milking the cow to death)? When I compare the value I bring to the table over my colleagues and I know how much they are making, I have a strong case to present it and get the best pay. Go ahead, Share your salrary. For beginners, I make 140K an year as a Software Architect 
More defense of the most economically crippling social norm. In an economic transaction, which work is, information is power. Employers provide salary information to all their hiring managers and employ consultancies to get information on what other companies are paying. Yet employees systematically work to deprive themselves of similar information. Reminds me of those statistics where 80% of the population thinks they are above average. Your younger workers are may be “rude”, but they are alos wiser. They know that it is crippling them to not have the salary information of coworkers and they are working to correct that imbalance between them and their employer. Just because it offends does not mean it isn’t the smart thing to do.
More defense of the most economically crippling social norm. In an economic transaction, which work is, information is power. Employers provide salary information to all their hiring managers and employ consultancies to get information on what other companies are paying. Yet employees systematically work to deprive themselves of similar information. Reminds me of those statistics where 80% of the population thinks they are above average. Your younger workers are may be “rude”, but they are alos wiser. They know that it is crippling them to not have the salary information of coworkers and they are working to correct that imbalance between them and their employer. Just because it offends does not mean it isn’t the smart thing to do.
You know I don’t really think its a great idea telling other what you would bring in each year. I know I wouldn’t that is something that needs to be kept private, not really the kind of information I would put out there so other can come and take my identity. But you know it seem that the younger generation has always opened up and shown their true demons on the internet. Look like their showing has show what payday look like and could possibly show those who would pray on their identity.
You know I don’t really think its a great idea telling other what you would bring in each year. I know I wouldn’t that is something that needs to be kept private, not really the kind of information I would put out there so other can come and take my identity. But you know it seem that the younger generation has always opened up and shown their true demons on the internet. Look like their showing has show what payday look like and could possibly show those who would pray on their identity.
I am 27 yrs. old and I find it highly inappropriate when people try to ascertain my salary. I’ve had several younger (22-23) co-workers try to do just that. Some are blatant. Others think they are clever by asking about my fixed expenses such as rent. Since they discuss their salaries openly, I know I make more than them. However, be that as it may, they are still paid well for kids fresh out of school. Yet they live paycheck to paycheck. Since I am not in that situation, it appears that the gaps between our salaries are very huge! I find this to be the driving factor behind their incessant quest to learn my salary. As such, I don’t think it would be good for my office relationships should my co-workers learn my salary.
in huge sectors of the economy compensation is public knowledge.for example, a major with 16 years of service makes “x” dollars,a staff sergeant with 10 years of service makes”y” dollars.most public employee salaries are public knowledge andit has not destroyed morale.in my view corporations like the “secret” system they can keep salaries lower across the board.
in huge sectors of the economy compensation is public knowledge.for example, a major with 16 years of service makes “x” dollars,a staff sergeant with 10 years of service makes”y” dollars.most public employee salaries are public knowledge andit has not destroyed morale.in my view corporations like the “secret” system they can keep salaries lower across the board.
I’m a firm believer in transparency in the workplace because it encourages a cooperative environment and a free flow of information that advances the business. That said, there are some things that shouldn’t be shared, and personal information, including salaries, is one of them.
If folks feel the need to compare paychecks with their colleagues, that may be a bad idea, but it’s their call. Bosses, though, need to keep that to themselves, as no good comes from sharing that info.
Will
LeadingCreatives.com
I see no reason to discuss my salary with anyone other than he or she who can raise or lower it. In today’s materialistic society, keeping one’s salary as a private matter stems the tide of inappropriate “assessments” by others.
Nadira,
Very nice topic here. Personally I believe that salaries are way too standard. In a pure capitalist society we’d see even larger variances in wages/salaries than we do now. We are not a pure capitalist society though. Proof:
- minimum wage
- escalating tax brackets
- government subsidies
- government-run education
- government regulations on various industries
- welfare
I’m not arguing good or bad here… just that our current business climate has a strong moderating effect on things.
I’ve hired people in my industry (online lead generation) to work for me and had huge variances between cost and value. I’ve had people in similar roles at similar pay levels produce wildly different levels of value – one person yielding 2 or 3 times what the other would, and both are paid the same. At the same point, I’ve also had people who make twice what the others make but produce four times the value… and thus even though they are paid more than worth many times that. IMO there are too many people just collecting “a paycheck” that complain about their salary but do nothing to improve their abilities or skillset.
You are worth what you are paid. If you want to be paid more, improve your ability to produce value. That means that if you get paid $20,000 and you produce $30,000 worth of benefit for your company, than you need to find a way to produce $70,000 of benefit for your company and then ask for a raise to $40,000. You’ll be making double, but your company will be making more than double the value, so both sides win. Naturally there are some industries like health or education that don’t enable this capitalist structure… but you shouldn’t be in those industries if you are in it for the money.
in my experience, id rather not share my salary since sometimes some of your colleagues would expect you to “pay” for the since YOU obviously have a higher salary.. not that in selfish, but cmon i work hard for the money
in my experience, id rather not share my salary since sometimes some of your colleagues would expect you to “pay” for the since YOU obviously have a higher salary.. not that in selfish, but cmon i work hard for the money
Mom and dad always taught me that discussing salary was tacky! Now…in my late 30s, the only person whose business it is is my husband’s. I know I am well-paid, as is my husband, and raising it with my colleagues and even family/friends leads to others wondering about how you spend your money and, as one poster stated, to an expectation of how much money you should be spending on them (xmas gifts, drinks after work), based on your income.
I am not opposed to salary information being posted, but keep it anonomous, i.e. If you work on a team with 10 to 20 people, post the numbers not the names. We are smart enough to know whether we are being underpaid, etc.
I am not opposed to salary information being posted, but keep it anonomous, i.e. If you work on a team with 10 to 20 people, post the numbers not the names. We are smart enough to know whether we are being underpaid, etc.
This article has resonated, even making a connection with sports:
http://www.populationstatistic.com/archives/2008/04/26/open-salary-etiquette/
If you ever want to become wealthy you need to be open about money. Money should never be secretive. You should always discuss your salary in order to help understand what careers and positions offer the most opportunity.
Being shy and quiet about your salary and money is a quick way to NEVER becoming wealthy and financial independent.
If you ever want to become wealthy you need to be open about money. Money should never be secretive. You should always discuss your salary in order to help understand what careers and positions offer the most opportunity.
Being shy and quiet about your salary and money is a quick way to NEVER becoming wealthy and financial independent.
Talking about upping a salary, did anyone see http://www.thehumanhybrid.com ? There is some big bucks being offered for that one.
Talking about upping a salary, did anyone see http://www.thehumanhybrid.com ? There is some big bucks being offered for that one.
I have seen both the plusses and minuses of sharing salary information. Based on my experience I find the net value is highly dependant on the organization and work atmosphere. I worked for a few years in the public sector where all salaries were public information. The mediocre and the extraordinary with the same years of experience were paid the same. This motivated many of the above average employees to leave and those with lesser capabilities to stay, with predictable effects on the organization’s performance. (Note I said “many” not all, there are some dedicated high performing individuals that can resist the siren song of higher pay elsewhere.)
I also worked for a number of years in several private sector jobs where salary information was largely confidential. In one, salary information was shared by individuals only to have it destroy teamwork when jealousy and resentment motivate lesser paid individuals to withhold key pieces of information or pretend to be too busy to provide necessary assistance on projects lead by their better paid peers. The company struggled and eventually went under; we all had to look for another job. While a few individuals might have felt the information put them in a better position for their personal salary negotiations, their individual advantage worked to the group’s disadvantage and we all got equally wet when the ship sank?
In another private sector job, through a computer error I became privy to salary and budgeted raise information for their entire department, way more than I wanted to know. Luckily by this time I was mature enough to handle this information without running to my supervisor whining about how much more others were paid than me. I did see what appeared to be significant disparities in pay between individuals (in my field women are paid more than men for the same level of responsibility and experience.) I looked for reasons and began to see more as I dug deeper. Women are paid more simply due to supply and demand. The supply is small and demand is high due to government mandated quotas, either comply or lose the contract. For disparities between men I had to look more carefully. What I eventually saw was the higher paid individuals did about the same work as others, but when the sh** really hit the fan, these were the “go to” people to fix the problem. I worked to become one of these people and my chance to “show what I had” came a couple years later. I did well and was inducted into the “haves.” I will admit, I did see others who were higher paid and I could find no reason why. Either I was not enough of a detective or, my preferred explanation, they had compromising pictures of the higher-ups.
On the first few occasions I was asked about my salary I just asked the questioner for naked pictures of themselves. This resulted in an open mouthed blank stare. Then I added, sharing salary comes after other intimate sharing, like naked pictures. Nobody ever asked twice.
In time, I developed a less crass reply which was based on the value I created for the company. Then when asked about my salary I would simply state that I was paid 1% of the gross profit I generate each year, less after the tax man takes his cut. Then I would ask what percentage they were paid. Usually they didn’t have a clue, so I would help them develop a figure. What projects had they worked on during the last year; what was the profit generated; how many others worked on the project and what was an appropriate allocation of profit to them personally? Then we would look at the annual report to get total corporate profit and divide that by the total employee count to get the average profit per employee, a benchmark they could compare themselves to so they could see if they were above or below average. No one wanted to see this comparison and would make up some excuse to beat a hasty retreat, leaving their question unanswered. The truth was that the average employee was paid about 50% of the gross profit they generated. It wasn’t that I was paid so little, just that I generated a lot more profit that the average bear.
I have seen both the plusses and minuses of sharing salary information. Based on my experience I find the net value is highly dependant on the organization and work atmosphere. I worked for a few years in the public sector where all salaries were public information. The mediocre and the extraordinary with the same years of experience were paid the same. This motivated many of the above average employees to leave and those with lesser capabilities to stay, with predictable effects on the organization’s performance. (Note I said “many” not all, there are some dedicated high performing individuals that can resist the siren song of higher pay elsewhere.)
I also worked for a number of years in several private sector jobs where salary information was largely confidential. In one, salary information was shared by individuals only to have it destroy teamwork when jealousy and resentment motivate lesser paid individuals to withhold key pieces of information or pretend to be too busy to provide necessary assistance on projects lead by their better paid peers. The company struggled and eventually went under; we all had to look for another job. While a few individuals might have felt the information put them in a better position for their personal salary negotiations, their individual advantage worked to the group’s disadvantage and we all got equally wet when the ship sank?
In another private sector job, through a computer error I became privy to salary and budgeted raise information for their entire department, way more than I wanted to know. Luckily by this time I was mature enough to handle this information without running to my supervisor whining about how much more others were paid than me. I did see what appeared to be significant disparities in pay between individuals (in my field women are paid more than men for the same level of responsibility and experience.) I looked for reasons and began to see more as I dug deeper. Women are paid more simply due to supply and demand. The supply is small and demand is high due to government mandated quotas, either comply or lose the contract. For disparities between men I had to look more carefully. What I eventually saw was the higher paid individuals did about the same work as others, but when the sh** really hit the fan, these were the “go to” people to fix the problem. I worked to become one of these people and my chance to “show what I had” came a couple years later. I did well and was inducted into the “haves.” I will admit, I did see others who were higher paid and I could find no reason why. Either I was not enough of a detective or, my preferred explanation, they had compromising pictures of the higher-ups.
On the first few occasions I was asked about my salary I just asked the questioner for naked pictures of themselves. This resulted in an open mouthed blank stare. Then I added, sharing salary comes after other intimate sharing, like naked pictures. Nobody ever asked twice.
In time, I developed a less crass reply which was based on the value I created for the company. Then when asked about my salary I would simply state that I was paid 1% of the gross profit I generate each year, less after the tax man takes his cut. Then I would ask what percentage they were paid. Usually they didn’t have a clue, so I would help them develop a figure. What projects had they worked on during the last year; what was the profit generated; how many others worked on the project and what was an appropriate allocation of profit to them personally? Then we would look at the annual report to get total corporate profit and divide that by the total employee count to get the average profit per employee, a benchmark they could compare themselves to so they could see if they were above or below average. No one wanted to see this comparison and would make up some excuse to beat a hasty retreat, leaving their question unanswered. The truth was that the average employee was paid about 50% of the gross profit they generated. It wasn’t that I was paid so little, just that I generated a lot more profit that the average bear.
I am in my mid twenties and I am just beginning to realize that I have to be careful about who I talk to about money (including my parents). Both my fiancee and I make an above average salary and the people who know how much we make are starting to expect certain things from us because they perceive that we make a lot of money. However, they don’t get to see our student loan payments or the high cost of living in our city. So, we have decided to stop talking about it because it creates false expectations from others which has the potential to negatively affect our relationships with them.
I am in my mid twenties and I am just beginning to realize that I have to be careful about who I talk to about money (including my parents). Both my fiancee and I make an above average salary and the people who know how much we make are starting to expect certain things from us because they perceive that we make a lot of money. However, they don’t get to see our student loan payments or the high cost of living in our city. So, we have decided to stop talking about it because it creates false expectations from others which has the potential to negatively affect our relationships with them.
I have been out of college & in the workforce for 6 years now. When I first started with my company a couple of young colleagues warned me not to share my salary with others in the office. My company did then and still does have a problem with paying new college hires the market rate but not increasing the long term employees salaries enough to match the market. Often a brand new employee can end up with a starting salary that is larger than the salary of an employee who has been with the company 20 years. My company has taken some actions to fix this but I still never share my salary with coworkers, especially those who are older & have more experience for fear they may think I’m getting paid too much. I don’t want to cause any strain in my relationships with coworkers.
I do share my salary with close friends and my immediate family (parents & brother). These are the people who can take pride in my salary, even if they don’t make as much themselves.
I have been out of college & in the workforce for 6 years now. When I first started with my company a couple of young colleagues warned me not to share my salary with others in the office. My company did then and still does have a problem with paying new college hires the market rate but not increasing the long term employees salaries enough to match the market. Often a brand new employee can end up with a starting salary that is larger than the salary of an employee who has been with the company 20 years. My company has taken some actions to fix this but I still never share my salary with coworkers, especially those who are older & have more experience for fear they may think I’m getting paid too much. I don’t want to cause any strain in my relationships with coworkers.
I do share my salary with close friends and my immediate family (parents & brother). These are the people who can take pride in my salary, even if they don’t make as much themselves.
If you’re a woman or a minority I believe you MUST share your salary information. The Supreme Court’s recent decision in Ledbetter v. Goodyear makes it imperative.
As this post discusses, the Court ruled that a sex based pay discrepancy was barred by the short Statute of Limitations provision of the Civil Rights Act (6 months). So, although she was short changed by $6,000 per year versus her colleagues for 20 years, her case was dismissed.
Of course, Ms. Ledbetter didn’t learn of the pay discrepancy because — guess what — she followed her company’s non-disclosure policy.
Short rule is this: If your company is enforcing some sort of disclosure policy, there should be a good reason for it. I see no valid reason for such policies in an open work environment.
One of my main job functions is annual planning for my company.
I have the ability to look at what co-workers make as well as the Officers of our company.
Do I look at this information and wish I made their salary or look to see if I am under paid? Nope.
What good will that do me? I can not change their salary. I can only do the best job I can and hope that merits an increase.
People ask me all the time what others make. I politely tell them the information is confidential and they should speak with their manager if they are concerned about their wages.
Talking is bad for you and others. It’s best to keep that between your spouse and you and not co-workers.
One of my main job functions is annual planning for my company.
I have the ability to look at what co-workers make as well as the Officers of our company.
Do I look at this information and wish I made their salary or look to see if I am under paid? Nope.
What good will that do me? I can not change their salary. I can only do the best job I can and hope that merits an increase.
People ask me all the time what others make. I politely tell them the information is confidential and they should speak with their manager if they are concerned about their wages.
Talking is bad for you and others. It’s best to keep that between your spouse and you and not co-workers.
Im 36 years old, and an IT manager in a small manufacturing company. I have no reservations about sharing my salary with anyone who wants to have the conversation, because I feel comfortable that I can illustrate the investments I’ve made (ie education, etc) and the value I bring to the organization.
I encourage EVERYONE I talk to to speak openly and plainly about their compensation. If you have a reservation about it, maybe you should ask yourself why.
Im 36 years old, and an IT manager in a small manufacturing company. I have no reservations about sharing my salary with anyone who wants to have the conversation, because I feel comfortable that I can illustrate the investments I’ve made (ie education, etc) and the value I bring to the organization.
I encourage EVERYONE I talk to to speak openly and plainly about their compensation. If you have a reservation about it, maybe you should ask yourself why.
I agree with Jeff from Texas–keeping salaries a secret only benefits the employers. I’ve been a public sector employee where my salary is essential public information, and I’ve been a private sector employee where it was private info. What I learned after I left the company was the I wasn’t the worst compensated person, but I wasn’t making what I should have been.
I agree with Jeff from Texas–keeping salaries a secret only benefits the employers. I’ve been a public sector employee where my salary is essential public information, and I’ve been a private sector employee where it was private info. What I learned after I left the company was the I wasn’t the worst compensated person, but I wasn’t making what I should have been.
What you and the commenters thus far seem to be missing is the question of why the salaries of your friends and colleagues are so important to you. Ultimately, your professional direction, and your salary, must satisfy only you.
“Why do you seek the Holy Grail? To glorify it, or to glorify God?” (Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade). Knowing others’ salaries has a large potential to produce only envy or superiority. If you work to satisfy your own material and professional needs, others’ salaries become largely irrelevant.
What you and the commenters thus far seem to be missing is the question of why the salaries of your friends and colleagues are so important to you. Ultimately, your professional direction, and your salary, must satisfy only you.
“Why do you seek the Holy Grail? To glorify it, or to glorify God?” (Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade). Knowing others’ salaries has a large potential to produce only envy or superiority. If you work to satisfy your own material and professional needs, others’ salaries become largely irrelevant.
Just do what I do…lie. Im in my late 20’s and have been in the pharmaceutical industry as a chemist for a few years. I sometimes say way less than I’m earning and coworkers usually cough up what they earn and suggest I ask for a raise. Or I tell people way more than I earn and some people believe me, while most become very jealous and even angry. Its amazing how a number can represent so many feelings in the human brain. The best thing to say to someone who asks for salary figures is to respond with…”how much money have you given away this year to charity? Or ..How much do you think you could live on if you lived the simplest life possible?” This usually changes the viewpoint of coworkers asking for salary figures towards realizing the bigger picture of the world we live in.
Just do what I do…lie. Im in my late 20’s and have been in the pharmaceutical industry as a chemist for a few years. I sometimes say way less than I’m earning and coworkers usually cough up what they earn and suggest I ask for a raise. Or I tell people way more than I earn and some people believe me, while most become very jealous and even angry. Its amazing how a number can represent so many feelings in the human brain. The best thing to say to someone who asks for salary figures is to respond with…”how much money have you given away this year to charity? Or ..How much do you think you could live on if you lived the simplest life possible?” This usually changes the viewpoint of coworkers asking for salary figures towards realizing the bigger picture of the world we live in.
As a Gen Xer, I’ve learned that if you don’t know where you sit in comparison to your colleagues, then discrepancies can add up tremendously over the years. Even a difference of 5% or less-for the same job- is terribly unfair when you consider the consequences of compounding (and %-based raises) over time. As an earlier post mentions, women are not paid the same as men, which we tend to brush off with acceptance, but it hurts in the long haul.
I work in a highly competitive industry with 6-figure pay for people in their 20s. If you don’t share compensation with your coworkers you are a fool. Company owners / managers have convinced employees that sharing their salary isn’t polite. Costs go up when everyone knows each others salaries. You need to know if you are being compensated fairly or if you should go find a job that pays market rate. If making money is a priority you need to know how to best maximize your earnings, understanding the pay structure at your company is vital. Everyone I know under 30 shares their salary and bonus information. Some people are satisfied and other people go apply for jobs, they discover if they are truly underpaid by testing the market. I laugh when someone doesn’t want to share income numbers, I know the joke is on them.
I work in a highly competitive industry with 6-figure pay for people in their 20s. If you don’t share compensation with your coworkers you are a fool. Company owners / managers have convinced employees that sharing their salary isn’t polite. Costs go up when everyone knows each others salaries. You need to know if you are being compensated fairly or if you should go find a job that pays market rate. If making money is a priority you need to know how to best maximize your earnings, understanding the pay structure at your company is vital. Everyone I know under 30 shares their salary and bonus information. Some people are satisfied and other people go apply for jobs, they discover if they are truly underpaid by testing the market. I laugh when someone doesn’t want to share income numbers, I know the joke is on them.
In my particular case, which is local government, all salaries over 60k are printed in the newspaper each year.
As you might imagine, that is one of the most popular issues.
I have a friend in management who hates when that issue comes out. He knows that some of his staff are going to be very unhappy when they have the opportunity to compare salaries.
From that paper I found out that a junior co-worker of mine was making more than me because he found a job offer elsewhere and was able to negotiate a higher salary internally with that information. My managers had no problem keeping that a secret. In fact, because of our pay structure and policy it turned out to be illegal for them to give such a raise but no-one was taken to task.
I never would have known if not for the newspaper. In that instance it helped me when my review came up again but it also made me question the integrity of the people I work under.
I think it is generally understood that management will try to compensate you at the lowest possible salary level if they can get away with it.
I had no problem with my co-worker trying to better his position. However, I am somewhat surprised that the pay structure and policy would be disregarded so blatantly. Surely they knew the information would be eventually published?
In my particular case, which is local government, all salaries over 60k are printed in the newspaper each year.
As you might imagine, that is one of the most popular issues.
I have a friend in management who hates when that issue comes out. He knows that some of his staff are going to be very unhappy when they have the opportunity to compare salaries.
From that paper I found out that a junior co-worker of mine was making more than me because he found a job offer elsewhere and was able to negotiate a higher salary internally with that information. My managers had no problem keeping that a secret. In fact, because of our pay structure and policy it turned out to be illegal for them to give such a raise but no-one was taken to task.
I never would have known if not for the newspaper. In that instance it helped me when my review came up again but it also made me question the integrity of the people I work under.
I think it is generally understood that management will try to compensate you at the lowest possible salary level if they can get away with it.
I had no problem with my co-worker trying to better his position. However, I am somewhat surprised that the pay structure and policy would be disregarded so blatantly. Surely they knew the information would be eventually published?
I find it’s very freeing to share salary information. In the Presbyterian Church (USA), ministers’ salaries are routinely compiled into a spreadsheet that is distributed publicly at the presbytery (county) level. Salaries are reported not by name, but by church name and pastor position (yet of course it is easy to figure out who each refers to). This valuable information helps establish “going rates”, points out stronger/weaker churches, and gives information to those underpaid. It even helps people know what they might conceiveably earn in this line of work. Clearly, public reporting of salaries is beneficial.
I find it’s very freeing to share salary information. In the Presbyterian Church (USA), ministers’ salaries are routinely compiled into a spreadsheet that is distributed publicly at the presbytery (county) level. Salaries are reported not by name, but by church name and pastor position (yet of course it is easy to figure out who each refers to). This valuable information helps establish “going rates”, points out stronger/weaker churches, and gives information to those underpaid. It even helps people know what they might conceiveably earn in this line of work. Clearly, public reporting of salaries is beneficial.
I made $73,959.24 last year as a junior executive at Citgo. Some of my colleagues made less than $50,000 least year. They are all jealous of me. It isn’t my fault that I got in good with management and take on extra responsibilities. My success is all due to my ambition and wit. Losing friends is all a part of the game. It is about making money first.
I made $73,959.24 last year as a junior executive at Citgo. Some of my colleagues made less than $50,000 least year. They are all jealous of me. It isn’t my fault that I got in good with management and take on extra responsibilities. My success is all due to my ambition and wit. Losing friends is all a part of the game. It is about making money first.
Doesn’t the “don’t ask, don’t tell” culture just enable pay discrimination? When (for example) women can’t find out what their male counterparts are making, years or decades can go by before the disparity is found.
Naturally, many people love to share their salaries out of curiosity and self-consciousness.
We want to know where we stand with the competition within our office, or if a boss is being prejudice. It kills us inside to figure out what someone makes based on their big or small house, or their BMW or Kia.
I say, just work hard, do what you love, and who cares what everyone else makes? Make YOU happy.
Naturally, many people love to share their salaries out of curiosity and self-consciousness.
We want to know where we stand with the competition within our office, or if a boss is being prejudice. It kills us inside to figure out what someone makes based on their big or small house, or their BMW or Kia.
I say, just work hard, do what you love, and who cares what everyone else makes? Make YOU happy.
If you run a company, why not follow advice similar to Robert Townsend’s in “Up the Organization” and post everyone’s salaries on a bulletin board – including yours? No more intrigues, game playing, and backstabbing, nothing to hide – all’s fair among men and women, co-workers and friends / family on the payroll, right? No more “keeping secrets” like BFF’s at school. That would certainly work at leading banks, yes? ……oh, wait, are people screaming and throwing sharp objects – before quitting? Hey Mr. CEO, maybe the payroll should be more just across the board, ding dong. Of course, Townsend (probably) didn’t literally mean it, but like he said, CEO’s shouldn’t be ashamed to post them. Don’t worry, though, it won’t happen.
If you run a company, why not follow advice similar to Robert Townsend’s in “Up the Organization” and post everyone’s salaries on a bulletin board – including yours? No more intrigues, game playing, and backstabbing, nothing to hide – all’s fair among men and women, co-workers and friends / family on the payroll, right? No more “keeping secrets” like BFF’s at school. That would certainly work at leading banks, yes? ……oh, wait, are people screaming and throwing sharp objects – before quitting? Hey Mr. CEO, maybe the payroll should be more just across the board, ding dong. Of course, Townsend (probably) didn’t literally mean it, but like he said, CEO’s shouldn’t be ashamed to post them. Don’t worry, though, it won’t happen.
I’m 24 and I feel it’s tacky to talk about how much you make, how much you spent on your jeans, etc. but maybe that’s because I don’t feel extremely successful with how much I make.
The biggest potential loser when coworkers share salary information are unscrupulous employers. If salary and bonuses are truly “merit based” there should be no surprises. I should be ok with the fact that Jessica makes more than me because she has performed better. Perhaps it is naive to think that salary is “merit based” but rather than focusing on the impact on coworker relationships, the focus should be on why salary information isn’t public by default.
The biggest potential loser when coworkers share salary information are unscrupulous employers. If salary and bonuses are truly “merit based” there should be no surprises. I should be ok with the fact that Jessica makes more than me because she has performed better. Perhaps it is naive to think that salary is “merit based” but rather than focusing on the impact on coworker relationships, the focus should be on why salary information isn’t public by default.
Nobody, including the original author or article, mentioned that discussing compensation with colleagues isn’t even necessary if the goal is to determine relative worth.
If the goal is to determine whether you’re paid fairly for your skills, experience, and/or credentials, simply talk to a placement agency or headhunter who specializes in your particular field. They not only will tell you whether you are fairly paid, they will be highly financially motivated to help you find a place where you can be if you aren’t.
If, like the younger folks in the article, a person is earlier in their career or in a lower-ranking position, there are publicly available salary survey results for most fields if you just look for them.
Discussing compensation with friends and colleagues just isn’t necessary for determining whether you’re being paid fairly — because in the lower end of the spectrum the data are more freely available, and in the upper end you can consult with professionals who have more data than any of your friends might.
Thus, the only real reason I can think of to discuss compensation with colleagues is for comparison — and that only creates winners, losers, and ill will.
Nobody, including the original author or article, mentioned that discussing compensation with colleagues isn’t even necessary if the goal is to determine relative worth.
If the goal is to determine whether you’re paid fairly for your skills, experience, and/or credentials, simply talk to a placement agency or headhunter who specializes in your particular field. They not only will tell you whether you are fairly paid, they will be highly financially motivated to help you find a place where you can be if you aren’t.
If, like the younger folks in the article, a person is earlier in their career or in a lower-ranking position, there are publicly available salary survey results for most fields if you just look for them.
Discussing compensation with friends and colleagues just isn’t necessary for determining whether you’re being paid fairly — because in the lower end of the spectrum the data are more freely available, and in the upper end you can consult with professionals who have more data than any of your friends might.
Thus, the only real reason I can think of to discuss compensation with colleagues is for comparison — and that only creates winners, losers, and ill will.
First, Nadira, welcome home. These are the topics we are used to and love to get from you.
I don’t know where I stand on this one. As a young guy that makes more than the average person my age (nearly 6 figures), I’m not sure I would ever share this with my co-workers. And to be honest, from the perspective using this information to help with raises etc, truth be told, I am always going to be going after a raise, promotion, bigger bonus, etc. No matter what my co-workers make. I will be striving for that when I’m the lowest paid employee in the department, and when I’m the highest.
The scarier part comes to my friends circle. A few years back I was in a different industry, and was making a 1/3 of what I do now. Back then, my friends and I openly shared what we made, benefits, bills, etc. But now, I would be really uncomfortable with people knowing what I make. Case in point back in January I was doing my taxes on my home computer one night, and left my W2 out on the desk. The next day my roommate mentioned that he saw how much I made and congratulated me, etc. Within a week, he completely changed how we interacted. No longer offering to pay for lunch when we go out, or picking up beer on the way home etc. It’s gotten to the point where he argued he shouldn’t have to split the rent 50/50 any more. Now he is only willing to pay 40% of it. It’s as if he feels entitled to some portion of my salary.
Any advice?
First, Nadira, welcome home. These are the topics we are used to and love to get from you.
I don’t know where I stand on this one. As a young guy that makes more than the average person my age (nearly 6 figures), I’m not sure I would ever share this with my co-workers. And to be honest, from the perspective using this information to help with raises etc, truth be told, I am always going to be going after a raise, promotion, bigger bonus, etc. No matter what my co-workers make. I will be striving for that when I’m the lowest paid employee in the department, and when I’m the highest.
The scarier part comes to my friends circle. A few years back I was in a different industry, and was making a 1/3 of what I do now. Back then, my friends and I openly shared what we made, benefits, bills, etc. But now, I would be really uncomfortable with people knowing what I make. Case in point back in January I was doing my taxes on my home computer one night, and left my W2 out on the desk. The next day my roommate mentioned that he saw how much I made and congratulated me, etc. Within a week, he completely changed how we interacted. No longer offering to pay for lunch when we go out, or picking up beer on the way home etc. It’s gotten to the point where he argued he shouldn’t have to split the rent 50/50 any more. Now he is only willing to pay 40% of it. It’s as if he feels entitled to some portion of my salary.
Any advice?
A few months back I made the mistake of sharing my salary information with a friend at work. We both exchanged numbers and I made about 10k more than this person who had equivalent duties and experience. This was supposed to be a private conversation, but their anger triggered them to tell ALOT of other people. It was a very uncomfortable situation. As it turned out I made more than several people and they all turned on me – pointing out my mistakes any chance they had. Im finally starting to feel comfortable at work again. BIG MISTAKE. Lesson learned: friends will not be your friends when they learn that you make more. DO NOT share this info.
A few months back I made the mistake of sharing my salary information with a friend at work. We both exchanged numbers and I made about 10k more than this person who had equivalent duties and experience. This was supposed to be a private conversation, but their anger triggered them to tell ALOT of other people. It was a very uncomfortable situation. As it turned out I made more than several people and they all turned on me – pointing out my mistakes any chance they had. Im finally starting to feel comfortable at work again. BIG MISTAKE. Lesson learned: friends will not be your friends when they learn that you make more. DO NOT share this info.
I completely disagree. This custom of being private about personal finance only benefits the shareholders and owners. An open dialog, while it may create some jealousy, will help all individuals gauge their position and know if they should be asking for more money. In addition, removing this silly taboo will ultimately decrease the gaps in salaries and lead to greater equality.
I completely disagree. This custom of being private about personal finance only benefits the shareholders and owners. An open dialog, while it may create some jealousy, will help all individuals gauge their position and know if they should be asking for more money. In addition, removing this silly taboo will ultimately decrease the gaps in salaries and lead to greater equality.
There are two different scenarios.
1) Sharing information with colleagues
2) Sharing information with close friends and acquaintances
I think the latter is critical especially when you’re young. Too many people have no idea what career opportunties are out there because they refuse to talk about salaries. I’ve done it with my friends, and it has never been problem. We’ve all done pretty well, I think in part because we’ve been willing to share information, and make changes in our careers because of that information.
As for sharing with colleagues, I don’t do it because it’s politically tricky. At the same time I think if you have good mentoring relationship with a collegue, I believe it can be quite helpful as well.
There are two different scenarios.
1) Sharing information with colleagues
2) Sharing information with close friends and acquaintances
I think the latter is critical especially when you’re young. Too many people have no idea what career opportunties are out there because they refuse to talk about salaries. I’ve done it with my friends, and it has never been problem. We’ve all done pretty well, I think in part because we’ve been willing to share information, and make changes in our careers because of that information.
As for sharing with colleagues, I don’t do it because it’s politically tricky. At the same time I think if you have good mentoring relationship with a collegue, I believe it can be quite helpful as well.
Then there’s the government, the ultimate bastion of equality, where everyone in the office is on the same pay scale that can be looked up on the Internet to see what each is making.
It works out fine in my opinion.
Then there’s the government, the ultimate bastion of equality, where everyone in the office is on the same pay scale that can be looked up on the Internet to see what each is making.
It works out fine in my opinion.
To those who have said that management has shut down discussions of how much people make, be aware that this is illegal — the National Labor Relations Act gives employees the right to discuss compensation (even in a non-union workplace), and those companies who try to enforce policies that say otherwise are opening themselves up to big trouble.
To those who have said that management has shut down discussions of how much people make, be aware that this is illegal — the National Labor Relations Act gives employees the right to discuss compensation (even in a non-union workplace), and those companies who try to enforce policies that say otherwise are opening themselves up to big trouble.
I think you’re better off not knowing what your colleagues make. It’s ok to share with friends out of work, even if a little jealousy comes from it. But the work place is so full of resentment (am I too cynical) that telling others can be far too damaging and could lead to bigger problems for you that just aren’t worth it.
I think you’re better off not knowing what your colleagues make. It’s ok to share with friends out of work, even if a little jealousy comes from it. But the work place is so full of resentment (am I too cynical) that telling others can be far too damaging and could lead to bigger problems for you that just aren’t worth it.
I wonder if the reason women are paid, on average, less than men is because women, on average, are more intimidated about discussing compensation then men are.
I wonder if the reason women are paid, on average, less than men is because women, on average, are more intimidated about discussing compensation then men are.
I am in my late 20’s and the only person I know who tries to figure out what I make is my roommate (and I never tell).
Everyone else I know realizes that we’re all in different industries and make different money. Plus how much you make doesn’t mean that’s what you have to play with, we all have different debt and bills. So we’d rather talk about books and what we did over the weekend than who makes what.
I am in my late 20’s and the only person I know who tries to figure out what I make is my roommate (and I never tell).
Everyone else I know realizes that we’re all in different industries and make different money. Plus how much you make doesn’t mean that’s what you have to play with, we all have different debt and bills. So we’d rather talk about books and what we did over the weekend than who makes what.
I can tell you from experience and I’m only in my early 30’s that sharing that information is never benefical to either party. However, if you work in a male dominated field such as I, with only two other female sales people I certainly would love to know what my male counterparts made and I’d only want to know that so I could demand a raise. I know that the women in the sales department I’m in make less than the men, but I have no way to prove it. Women have come a long way but we’re still not there, at least not where I work.
I can tell you from experience and I’m only in my early 30’s that sharing that information is never benefical to either party. However, if you work in a male dominated field such as I, with only two other female sales people I certainly would love to know what my male counterparts made and I’d only want to know that so I could demand a raise. I know that the women in the sales department I’m in make less than the men, but I have no way to prove it. Women have come a long way but we’re still not there, at least not where I work.
Interesting article, even though it isn’t really about the same thing as the Times article.
The article in the Times stresses NOT sharing salary figures with coworkers.
I’m in my early twenties, and felt like I was reading about myself and my friends when reading the Times article. We disclose pretty much everything to each other. Salaries, bonuses, credit card debt, student loans, how much we pay for our apartments… etc. But I wouldn’t dare share this information with my coworkers!
Interesting article, even though it isn’t really about the same thing as the Times article.
The article in the Times stresses NOT sharing salary figures with coworkers.
I’m in my early twenties, and felt like I was reading about myself and my friends when reading the Times article. We disclose pretty much everything to each other. Salaries, bonuses, credit card debt, student loans, how much we pay for our apartments… etc. But I wouldn’t dare share this information with my coworkers!
I recently switched jobs and getting salary info of someone who recently joined the company I left was invaluable. I knew how much money I was missing my not switching to a different company.
I try not to covet and I hope people can get the best salary possible. That’s key.
But it is also important to know when you are underpaid. Advice I got would help with that: interview internally and externally every year in order to gauge your worth.
I recently switched jobs and getting salary info of someone who recently joined the company I left was invaluable. I knew how much money I was missing my not switching to a different company.
I try not to covet and I hope people can get the best salary possible. That’s key.
But it is also important to know when you are underpaid. Advice I got would help with that: interview internally and externally every year in order to gauge your worth.
Good article. I agree that coworkers should not share salary information.
Employee salaraies are set at different levels for a variety of reasons. Many of these reasons may not be obvious to the parties of such a conversation. And many of them, even in the totality of the circumstances, just aren’t fair. But life isn’t fair.
The question isn’t what your coworkers make. The question is whether you feel fairly compensated for your work. If you do, it doesn’t matter what others make. If not, ask for a raise or find another job that values your skills.
Oh, and “whatnot” is an English word defined by the Merriam-Webster dictionary as “any of various other things that might also be mentioned.”
Good article. I agree that coworkers should not share salary information.
Employee salaraies are set at different levels for a variety of reasons. Many of these reasons may not be obvious to the parties of such a conversation. And many of them, even in the totality of the circumstances, just aren’t fair. But life isn’t fair.
The question isn’t what your coworkers make. The question is whether you feel fairly compensated for your work. If you do, it doesn’t matter what others make. If not, ask for a raise or find another job that values your skills.
Oh, and “whatnot” is an English word defined by the Merriam-Webster dictionary as “any of various other things that might also be mentioned.”
If I hadn’t talked pay at my old job, I’d have continued to make 20 percent less than my colleagues. Instead, I got the information I needed to demand the raise I deserved.
I’m a little more circumspect in my current job because the pay scales seem to be adhered to more fairly. I know that my pay is pretty close to that of other people with similar experience levels and work ethics, and that’s good enough for me.
I make in the mid $30k range, and have friends with pay ranging from $17k (grad school stipend) to six figures (energy trader). I find that talking about this stuff openly helps us in our friendships. We can make plans that everyone can afford, and by talking about money and feeling we are able to avoid resentment.
It helps that we’re all smart and college educated, and those of us who make less would all be capable of earning more if we chose to. Our salaries are reflections of the choices we’ve made. My six-figure friend would hate to live off my income, but I would hate to work 80 hours a week in a cutthroat industry. It seems like a fair trade off.
If I hadn’t talked pay at my old job, I’d have continued to make 20 percent less than my colleagues. Instead, I got the information I needed to demand the raise I deserved.
I’m a little more circumspect in my current job because the pay scales seem to be adhered to more fairly. I know that my pay is pretty close to that of other people with similar experience levels and work ethics, and that’s good enough for me.
I make in the mid $30k range, and have friends with pay ranging from $17k (grad school stipend) to six figures (energy trader). I find that talking about this stuff openly helps us in our friendships. We can make plans that everyone can afford, and by talking about money and feeling we are able to avoid resentment.
It helps that we’re all smart and college educated, and those of us who make less would all be capable of earning more if we chose to. Our salaries are reflections of the choices we’ve made. My six-figure friend would hate to live off my income, but I would hate to work 80 hours a week in a cutthroat industry. It seems like a fair trade off.
Are you kidding me? Did you just use “whatnot”? Is that what poses for appropriate grammar and English in articles these days?
Are you kidding me? Did you just use “whatnot”? Is that what poses for appropriate grammar and English in articles these days?
I recently got a promotion into the HR department at a Fortune 500 company where I have worked for five years. Seeing everyone’s salaries in the system, especially those of the big cheeses, was like opening a Pandora’s box. Extremely depressing to see what some of these no talent ass-clowns make. I have busted my ass for over 15 years trying to put three kids through college as a single mom, am driving a 20 year old car with a busted muffler which I can barely afford to put gas in, and work circles around these idiots. I really wish I could go back to NOT knowing that most of the people I interact with on a daily basis make at least ten times what I do. Especially since when they do even show up for “work”, it’s to sit around in meetings and drum up more dumb crap for me to do. -Jaded Jane
I recently got a promotion into the HR department at a Fortune 500 company where I have worked for five years. Seeing everyone’s salaries in the system, especially those of the big cheeses, was like opening a Pandora’s box. Extremely depressing to see what some of these no talent ass-clowns make. I have busted my ass for over 15 years trying to put three kids through college as a single mom, am driving a 20 year old car with a busted muffler which I can barely afford to put gas in, and work circles around these idiots. I really wish I could go back to NOT knowing that most of the people I interact with on a daily basis make at least ten times what I do. Especially since when they do even show up for “work”, it’s to sit around in meetings and drum up more dumb crap for me to do. -Jaded Jane
I agree to the ‘don’t tell’ scenerio.
Once you tell someone how much you make, they subconiously catagorize you and treat you accordingly.
I agree to the ‘don’t tell’ scenerio.
Once you tell someone how much you make, they subconiously catagorize you and treat you accordingly.
Yep, such information cannot be shared without a fair amount of humility of a very thick skin… with all involved parties. That said, there is a small group of friends with which I can share salary information (although certainly not orgasm information!) comfortably.
I think there are important benefits to this practice in terms of knowing what you can ask for in terms of a raise. However, I wouldn’t be so foolish as to bring up specific examples of what my friends and coworkers are being paid to my boss.
Yep, such information cannot be shared without a fair amount of humility of a very thick skin… with all involved parties. That said, there is a small group of friends with which I can share salary information (although certainly not orgasm information!) comfortably.
I think there are important benefits to this practice in terms of knowing what you can ask for in terms of a raise. However, I wouldn’t be so foolish as to bring up specific examples of what my friends and coworkers are being paid to my boss.
I agree with this 100%. I found that when I first graduated from college my friends and I all had similar (sales mainly) starting professions and therefore we would share our salaries. As our careers went further and we developed different niches and skill sets we definitely became more hush about compensation. I have now been out of school for about 6 years. I would say that the first two years out we discussed salary openly, now we dont at all. I feel as though, amongst my group of friends, we probably hold back on this due to the level of respect that we have for each other and because professionally we have matured well beyond where we started. We also know that there are large seperations in the ranges of our compensation because of the various industries and professions now. We did pretty much all seperate into different industries ( mine for example ) and that has a big part in the whole thing.
I agree with this 100%. I found that when I first graduated from college my friends and I all had similar (sales mainly) starting professions and therefore we would share our salaries. As our careers went further and we developed different niches and skill sets we definitely became more hush about compensation. I have now been out of school for about 6 years. I would say that the first two years out we discussed salary openly, now we dont at all. I feel as though, amongst my group of friends, we probably hold back on this due to the level of respect that we have for each other and because professionally we have matured well beyond where we started. We also know that there are large seperations in the ranges of our compensation because of the various industries and professions now. We did pretty much all seperate into different industries ( mine for example ) and that has a big part in the whole thing.
I guess it depends on the industry and/or the company you work for. It might be taboo to discuss salary specifics, but in this day and age, it seems to make sense to ensure one isn’t being taken advantage of by one’s company.
For example, I work in the medical field. I used to work for the largest academic medical center in my area. I’m in my twenties, but my colleagues varied from younger than me to near retirement age. Three years ago, when I had just started at the medical center, it was experiencing a mass exodus of nurses. The reason? Many veteran nurses, who had been there for years, began talking with some of their newly graduated (mostly around my age) nurse colleagues. They discovered that the ***new graduate*** (read: no experience) nurses were being paid more than they were.
As a result, many of the veteran nurses went elsewhere and received very large salary increases. I’ve worked at a few different hospitals owned by different corporations in the same area since then, and I’ve seen similar behaviors at all of them. This may be limited to the healthcare industry or perhaps it’s just limited to my geographic area. But in fields which supposedly have critical shortages of personnel, one would think employers would take more steps to ensure employee loyalty.
The bottom line? I think it’s very important to discuss job responsibilities and compensation openly with one’s coworkers. Granted, not all industries and companies have hundreds or thousands of positions with the exact same job description, but it makes sense to me to compare such things to make sure one’s company isn’t taking advantage of him/her. In this day and age, corporations seem to have very little loyalty to their employees, so it makes sense to be sure you’re getting the best compensation you can be.
I guess it depends on the industry and/or the company you work for. It might be taboo to discuss salary specifics, but in this day and age, it seems to make sense to ensure one isn’t being taken advantage of by one’s company.
For example, I work in the medical field. I used to work for the largest academic medical center in my area. I’m in my twenties, but my colleagues varied from younger than me to near retirement age. Three years ago, when I had just started at the medical center, it was experiencing a mass exodus of nurses. The reason? Many veteran nurses, who had been there for years, began talking with some of their newly graduated (mostly around my age) nurse colleagues. They discovered that the ***new graduate*** (read: no experience) nurses were being paid more than they were.
As a result, many of the veteran nurses went elsewhere and received very large salary increases. I’ve worked at a few different hospitals owned by different corporations in the same area since then, and I’ve seen similar behaviors at all of them. This may be limited to the healthcare industry or perhaps it’s just limited to my geographic area. But in fields which supposedly have critical shortages of personnel, one would think employers would take more steps to ensure employee loyalty.
The bottom line? I think it’s very important to discuss job responsibilities and compensation openly with one’s coworkers. Granted, not all industries and companies have hundreds or thousands of positions with the exact same job description, but it makes sense to me to compare such things to make sure one’s company isn’t taking advantage of him/her. In this day and age, corporations seem to have very little loyalty to their employees, so it makes sense to be sure you’re getting the best compensation you can be.
To me, sharing income statistics does nothing but bred ill feelings and make “professionals” act like children. If you share that information with someone, what do you honestly think they’re going to do with it? “Hey, so and so makes this much money! Why don’t I?” It’s very childish. There is, in my opinion, absolutely no legitimate reason a fellow colleague “needs” to know your income. Friends and family, that’s up to you. But colleagues, I see no reason. And I am one of those rising generation members and am greatly embarrassed by this.
To me, sharing income statistics does nothing but bred ill feelings and make “professionals” act like children. If you share that information with someone, what do you honestly think they’re going to do with it? “Hey, so and so makes this much money! Why don’t I?” It’s very childish. There is, in my opinion, absolutely no legitimate reason a fellow colleague “needs” to know your income. Friends and family, that’s up to you. But colleagues, I see no reason. And I am one of those rising generation members and am greatly embarrassed by this.
It seems the author is talking about two things at once. First, a general policy of incautious disclosure is indeed damaging to a person’s career. No one needs to know about my personal life! However, at certain strategic times I believe it can be ok to share salary information. If an employer is paying people unequally without an apparent difference in job responsibility or experience then that employer should explain. I think that a large part of this cultural taboo about not discussing salary in fact originates from employers who are trying to get away with paying talented employees less than their coworkers–or even breaking the law. Often a salary disclosure will reveal bias on the part of the employer with regard to race, age or whatever. If the employer wants to avoid the envy and tension that may result from salary disclosure they merely have to pay their employees equally for equal work.
It seems the author is talking about two things at once. First, a general policy of incautious disclosure is indeed damaging to a person’s career. No one needs to know about my personal life! However, at certain strategic times I believe it can be ok to share salary information. If an employer is paying people unequally without an apparent difference in job responsibility or experience then that employer should explain. I think that a large part of this cultural taboo about not discussing salary in fact originates from employers who are trying to get away with paying talented employees less than their coworkers–or even breaking the law. Often a salary disclosure will reveal bias on the part of the employer with regard to race, age or whatever. If the employer wants to avoid the envy and tension that may result from salary disclosure they merely have to pay their employees equally for equal work.
My salary is shared with everyone because I am a State of Michigan employee. Only about a year ago did I find out my salary is subject to FOIA when the local paper placed my name, classification and salary on the internet. Why did they have to publish names? This created an uproar and I and many fellow workers cancelled their subscription to the paper. The paper used the justification that the taxpayers pay my salary so they have a right to know what I’m paid. Perhaps I should know what everyone at the stores I purchase product make since I pay their salary too. I am appalled that the editor of the paper – Mickey Hirten – spouse works for the Capital Area District Library which is a public entity and I asked him a year ago when State of Michigan employees wages were published by his decision when the CADL salaries would be posted and he said soon. I think this was a political stunt and shows dishonesty on his behalf as he is protecting his wife’s salary from public knowledge but is willing to share mine and 50,000 other State employees salaries with the world.
Here is a link to this salary database:
My salary is shared with everyone because I am a State of Michigan employee. Only about a year ago did I find out my salary is subject to FOIA when the local paper placed my name, classification and salary on the internet. Why did they have to publish names? This created an uproar and I and many fellow workers cancelled their subscription to the paper. The paper used the justification that the taxpayers pay my salary so they have a right to know what I’m paid. Perhaps I should know what everyone at the stores I purchase product make since I pay their salary too. I am appalled that the editor of the paper – Mickey Hirten – spouse works for the Capital Area District Library which is a public entity and I asked him a year ago when State of Michigan employees wages were published by his decision when the CADL salaries would be posted and he said soon. I think this was a political stunt and shows dishonesty on his behalf as he is protecting his wife’s salary from public knowledge but is willing to share mine and 50,000 other State employees salaries with the world.
Here is a link to this salary database:
The significant point that you’re missing is that unless you disclose your salary, and have a sense of what other individuals are making, you have no idea if there is salary discrimination, which is all to common for individuals. Especially given the Supreme Court’s ruling on the time table, these things would need to be discussed frequently and early to give women and other oppressed groups a chance to be more fairly compensated.
The significant point that you’re missing is that unless you disclose your salary, and have a sense of what other individuals are making, you have no idea if there is salary discrimination, which is all to common for individuals. Especially given the Supreme Court’s ruling on the time table, these things would need to be discussed frequently and early to give women and other oppressed groups a chance to be more fairly compensated.
I think the etiquette of not discussion salaries is a bit of an anachronism in large parts of today’s workforce.
Knowing what colleagues salary histories have been can be extremely useful in evaluating what management is going to be prepared to offer in salary negotiations. To forgo this tool for the sake of not being rude seems a little childish to even one so young as myself.
I think the etiquette of not discussion salaries is a bit of an anachronism in large parts of today’s workforce.
Knowing what colleagues salary histories have been can be extremely useful in evaluating what management is going to be prepared to offer in salary negotiations. To forgo this tool for the sake of not being rude seems a little childish to even one so young as myself.
Publicity of CEO, CFO, VP’S has certainly not hurt those positions’ compensation. It has in-fact helped as their compensation is based on the compensation of like positions nationally. Unlike salaries based on local influence.
Publicity of CEO, CFO, VP’S has certainly not hurt those positions’ compensation. It has in-fact helped as their compensation is based on the compensation of like positions nationally. Unlike salaries based on local influence.
Yes sharing compensation information can lead to problems in the work place but I am under the belief that as we mature in our careers most of us understand that we all make about the same $$$’s give or take 10-20%. Now the big question is what does everyone do with there compensation, has divorce come into play, excessive debt etc. In the end it’w how you chose to spend or not spend your compensation with will really seperate the men from the boys.
Yes sharing compensation information can lead to problems in the work place but I am under the belief that as we mature in our careers most of us understand that we all make about the same $$$’s give or take 10-20%. Now the big question is what does everyone do with there compensation, has divorce come into play, excessive debt etc. In the end it’w how you chose to spend or not spend your compensation with will really seperate the men from the boys.
Withholding salary information only serves the employer. Because they control all the information, it allows them to minimize the overall compensation they have to pay out to a given set of workers. If, say, all the accountants shared their information and John reallized that Jenny made 20% more for the same work/title, he could go to his employer and negotiate a higher salary. Otherwise, he might accept the 3% raise failing to capture his value. If salary is transparent, the company will be forced to compensate based on merit. The company could send clear signals incenting the kind of behavior they want from their employees (and don’t want) using salary. This benifits both sides. As usual, more information is better. Jealousy is weak. If a better employee is getting paid more, work harder. If the compensation is unfair, seek another job.
Withholding salary information only serves the employer. Because they control all the information, it allows them to minimize the overall compensation they have to pay out to a given set of workers. If, say, all the accountants shared their information and John reallized that Jenny made 20% more for the same work/title, he could go to his employer and negotiate a higher salary. Otherwise, he might accept the 3% raise failing to capture his value. If salary is transparent, the company will be forced to compensate based on merit. The company could send clear signals incenting the kind of behavior they want from their employees (and don’t want) using salary. This benifits both sides. As usual, more information is better. Jealousy is weak. If a better employee is getting paid more, work harder. If the compensation is unfair, seek another job.
No matter how old or young you are, discussing personal matters like how much you earn or the intimate details of your relationships, I think is tasteless and is a sign of bad etiquette. Just because we’re so used to being connected to people all over through MySpace or FaceBook, doesn’t make some topics ok to discuss for the sake of expanding your network.
No matter how old or young you are, discussing personal matters like how much you earn or the intimate details of your relationships, I think is tasteless and is a sign of bad etiquette. Just because we’re so used to being connected to people all over through MySpace or FaceBook, doesn’t make some topics ok to discuss for the sake of expanding your network.
You are absolutly wrong! Knowledge is power and knowing what others around you make puts you in a better position to make more. If you don’t know what your co-workers are making how would you know if you are getting drastically under-paid for the level of your work. Knowing what other people make, and reacting based off of that information it the ultimate form of market correction.
You are absolutly wrong! Knowledge is power and knowing what others around you make puts you in a better position to make more. If you don’t know what your co-workers are making how would you know if you are getting drastically under-paid for the level of your work. Knowing what other people make, and reacting based off of that information it the ultimate form of market correction.
At my previous company, a group of people started sharing their salary information with each other (Not GenY in this case, but a clique of visa holders from one particular country) and using that information as leverage to request raises, even out of the normal raise cycle. Needless to say, that infuriated management. The response was to remind all employees that salary information is a sensitive company information shared with each employee out of necessity and further sharing of that information violated our Company Policy, for which the punishment included dismissal. That seemed to work, or at least keep it quiet.
At my previous company, a group of people started sharing their salary information with each other (Not GenY in this case, but a clique of visa holders from one particular country) and using that information as leverage to request raises, even out of the normal raise cycle. Needless to say, that infuriated management. The response was to remind all employees that salary information is a sensitive company information shared with each employee out of necessity and further sharing of that information violated our Company Policy, for which the punishment included dismissal. That seemed to work, or at least keep it quiet.
Well, I got into big trouble for disclosing my salary casually to some colleagues at work. In the following appraisal, those fools asked for a raise pointing out my salary. The situation got out of control and I was warned not to disclose such critical matters. Well I didn’t know how much they were getting paid and the difference between our pay scales was pretty big. Learnt the hard way not to disclose your paycheck. You don’t know what you might get into.
Well, I got into big trouble for disclosing my salary casually to some colleagues at work. In the following appraisal, those fools asked for a raise pointing out my salary. The situation got out of control and I was warned not to disclose such critical matters. Well I didn’t know how much they were getting paid and the difference between our pay scales was pretty big. Learnt the hard way not to disclose your paycheck. You don’t know what you might get into.
A little safer way to share your salary… everyone writes down your annual salary on a piece of paper & puts it in a hat (no names). You then read out all the salaries and find out the variety of pay amongst your colleagues/friends/whoever. Then you know if you should be mad or not.
A little safer way to share your salary… everyone writes down your annual salary on a piece of paper & puts it in a hat (no names). You then read out all the salaries and find out the variety of pay amongst your colleagues/friends/whoever. Then you know if you should be mad or not.
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What started as a quirky Fortune cover story on Generation Y in 2007 has turned into a full-time job covering the fastest growing segment of the American workforce for Nadira A. Hira. But it's on The Gig that she's been able to speak directly to the much discussed, much maligned, and she thinks, very much underestimated Yers themselves, reflecting with them on everything from finding meaningful work to hiding meaningful body art. Herself a Yer, Hira has always been interested in engaging her peers, from her time writing for MTV News' Choose or Lose 2004 campaign, to her work spreading the Gen Y story as a speaker and television personality, from CNN to VH1 and back again. A recipient of the NewsBios 30 Under 30 award, showcasing business journalists on the rise, the would-be poet, sometime bartender, and professional sports fan, calls downtown Manhattan - and The Gig - home.
Very interesting article. Western societies have guarded salraies better than their governments guarded the UFO secrets for centuries. When you keep it a secret, it only helps the corporate world to try to give the lowest salary possible to the employees and keep the raises to the minimum. They try to encourage you to keep it a secret by telling you that sharing that information will lead to increased competition & professional tension etc. Well, not so much. Can’t I guess how much you probably are making by looking at the cars you drive and the homes you live and how many days a week you eat out and the vacations you take? Its a fools paradise to think keeping your salary a secret is going to help you. On the flip side, if you don’t know what your colleagues are making, how sure are you that your manager is not paying you the least salary possible and still getting the best work out of you (yeah, milking the cow to death)? When I compare the value I bring to the table over my colleagues and I know how much they are making, I have a strong case to present it and get the best pay. Go ahead, Share your salrary. For beginners, I make 140K an year as a Software Architect